E-Collar Training?

[stro]

I know this subject has been beaten to death on her but I have a few questions..

I have a puppy that's 3.5 months old and I've been doing some research on different trainers and methods etc. I've never owned a hunting dog before so this a new area for me.

I visited a successful trainer (who uses e-collars) to watch his dogs and check out his kennel as I am looking for someone to train my pup. I've never had any experience with e-collars but I wouldn't really call my first experience positive. First, he showed me a couple of dogs that performed flawlessly. The next dog, however, I guess didn't do what it was supposed to do during a blind retrieve, so it was shocked. The dog laid down and "screamed" for lack of a better word. The trainer called it back and I guess it continued to do the wrong thing because the shocking continued as did the screaming for probably like 2 minutes. The dog was running around trying to get away from the pain while foaming at the mouth and finally jumped inside of a nearby utility vehicle and laid down. Finally, the dog came crawling along the ground over to the trainer. The second attempt at the retrieve, the dog sort of did the right thing as it didn't get shocked as much and completed the retrieve. Is this normal?

My puppy is very smart and has a unique, confident personality. I don't want her to be reduced to a hollow, mindless robot that constantly lives in fear of getting shocked. It seems that e-collars can change the personality of a dog which isn't something I want.

Are there other forms of "correction? I understand the benefit of e-collars, and was initially open-minded about them, but now I really don't think I want anything to do with them. I don't want my dog "screaming" at any point during her training. I've read about the "old school" training methods but I'm not really trying to whack my dog with a riding crop either.

Are these the only two methods of correction or am I missing something here?

Not trying to step on anyones toes, just trying to figure out which way I need to go

[HRC Dogs]

I would not describe what you witnessed, the traits of a successful trainer.

[803]

E Collars are only successful at correcting a dog who knows what he did wrong and knows what to do to relieve the pressure, obviously the dog did not understand to relieve the pressure by performing the correct response.... doesnt seem like something a good professional trainer would do.

[stro]

I would not describe what you witnessed, the traits of a successful trainer.

I understand and that's what I was thinking as well, but he has won numerous titles as well as been mentioned both favorably on here as well as other forums. That is why I wondered if this was par for the course. Like I said, I don't have any experience in training or owning gundogs but this was pretty discouraging. Once again, just trying to figure this out.

[stro]

E Collars are only successful at correcting a dog who knows what he did wrong and knows what to do to relieve the pressure, obviously the dog did not understand to relieve the pressure by performing the correct response.... doesnt seem like something a good professional trainer would do.

Yes I have read this, but wouldn't the fact that the dog got the retrieve right on the second attempt, indicate that it knew what to do?

[803]

Yes I have read this, but wouldn't the fact that the dog got the retrieve right on the second attempt, indicate that it knew what to do?

yeah but the shock did not immediately lead to a correct response which is the goal....

[Mobetter]

my dog is in training now.they should not run from the pressure.they should know that the key to releaving the pressure is to threw u and not run away from it. its called debolting i think.just my 2 cents

[bobbyhill]

i guess i don't know a anything

[SouthBryanLabs]

The bottom line is that you did EXACTLY what you should do and go to see what the trainer does first hand and not just take his word for how he works with the dogs on his truck. If you don't feel like there is justification behind ANY way that a dog is being treated then find another trainer, period. You have to trust your instincts, I don't care who the hell you are planning on using. I know a number of trainers, have judged the dogs on their truck and would never, I repeat never use or refer them business. The fact that you have never had a gun dog in training is only important in that you might not have understood what the trainer was intending to accomplish,but that does not excuse being cruel to an animal. I don't care what anyone says you know abuse when you see it. Now with that said I have a dog who is a big baby when it comes to any pressure and will whine and yelp like you are cutting his tail off when you use a "1" on the ecollar, but he knows how to turn off the pressure by stop doing what he was doing when he got the "1". Needless to say he is what you might call "soft". Some dogs just don't handle pressure well at all and they need to train and progress at a much slower pace then a predefined calendar of how long it "should take" to get through a training program. They are just like kids, all of them different and they take as long as they take. It makes me laugh, and sometimes sick when I hear or see a owner / trainer / handler tell me how they get their dogs this title or that title at some ridiculous age. What the hell is the race for? You going somewhere none of the rest of us know about? There is probably more of this on the Field Trial side as opposed to the Hunt Test side given the age limit ( 2 years ) to make it on the Derby List. I have tried a couple of times to get a solid Derby dog and have not been successful, but so what?? ... they have all ( so far any way ) turned out to be nice dogs that most people would love to have in their duck blind. So, after that long response and sermon, go with your gut if the trainer you thought was "your guy" ( or gal ) turned out to be a real prick. Then go meet some others and watch them in their environment, and only put your family member with someone you trust and are comfortable with. You won't be disappointed in the long run. There are a lot of so called "pro's" who suck, and a few who you will find treat will treat your puppy like it is their own.

[stro]

Thanks for the advice, that's exactly what I was looking for. The guy also took a pretty solid kick at the dog as it ran by hollering, so I don't think the dog was soft as much as the guy might have some unresolved anger issues. He was also bragging about his puppies swimming unassisted at 5 weeks old, which I found pretty ridiculous and in line with you said. I was concerned that since this guy was a "pro" with a top-notch facility, that this was the norm.

[mudminnow]

Read alot of training books yourself and learn about the different ways folks train. Whatever sounds best to you, use that method yourself or find a trainer that uses those methods. Also rethink the way you read your dog. Dogs do not know right from wrong, they will do what is what in their mind most likely to get a reward/ avoid punishment/pain ("pressure").I feel the best thing for your dog now is not retrieves but obedience and start working retrieves in a couple months. Others will disagree and thats fine, just do research and pick a way to train a dog and stick to it

[Tha Dick]

For what's it's worth........ Dickidoo gets wood when he sees the E-collar come out. Take it as you will........

It's how you use it! .

If you plan on "not" using a E-collar, plan on having to do it all physically. Even if you "do" use it, you still have to keep a 50/50 balance with the physical and electrical pressure.

[FEETDOWN]

Good post Mark. Nelli runs up to me and sits down when she sees the collar, play time.

E-collars get a bad rap from two kinds of people, people that have had an experience similar to yours and people that are just plain ignorant to there proper use as a training tool.

X2 on what Tha Dick said about balancing pressure. Electricity is only one form of pressure among many that are very effective.

[SouthBryanLabs]

I absolutely agree that the e-collar is an important part of a properly implemented training program. I personally am a supporter and a member of TriTronics Influentials Club. What makes me extremely mad is when a guy who is supposed to be a professional, puts himself or herself out there to take clients and does not know how to properly use the tool the way it should be. Too bad you don't have to prove yourself before you call yourself a pro.